Interview: From Dzyga’s Paw To Ukraine’s Unmanned Systems Forces
When Dimko Zhluktenko announced that he would be stepping down from the Dzyga’s Paw charity he co-founded in order to enlist in the Ukrainian military, Overt Defense had the opportunity to speak with him on his decision to join, and his thoughts on the time he spent leading the charity prior to his shipping out to training and joining Ukraine’s Unmanned Systems Forces as a drone pilot.
We first spoke to Dimko about his work through Dzyga’s Paw two years ago, you can find that earlier interview here.
This interview has been edited for clarity.
When did you decide to enlist in the Ukrainian military?
I think it was around the early winter of 2024.
Why did you decide at that time that this is when you want to join the military instead of helping through Dzyga’s Paw?
It was kind of always under your radar, so I think more comes with the general vision that I have in mind for my life, that I want to help Ukraine be free. And to fight for that freedom.
And Dzyga’s Paw was just one of the instruments, same as serving in the army. It’s just one of the instruments to achieve that goal.
During the winter, I have seen that I have created a system that is good enough in the charity that it can function without me, and I am able to let other people lead this whole story, while I’ll be, let’s say, promoted from the boss to the recipient of the aid that the organization does.
So, it’s not really an impulsive decision or anything like that. It’s more of a switch in your roles, but staying in the same vision for myself.
So, you chose to join the Ukrainian military on your own terms rather than waiting for the letter saying that you’ve been called up through mobilization?
Well, I think I’m quite safe from mobilization. And if I wanted to, there is some legal ground that I can reserve or exempt myself from military service because I’m running this big charity.
But I never wanted to use that option. I think in the new role, I’ll be more useful.
Especially given that generally the level of mobilized people or people who are just coming to the army now is getting lower. I think I’m able to lift that quite a bit and to become a leader in this new wave of signing contracts. I really was not scared of any mobilization or anything like that.
And even if you get into an infantry unit, you still have good chances of first surviving, and then making an impact.
So what does it really feel like in terms of actually filling in all the forms, getting the checks done to verify yourself as fit for service?
Quite easy. I think most of the things that can happen happen when you make that decision initially, and for me, it happened that winter.
And then it’s just implementing the decision and you will just do whatever it takes.
“All right, I’ll just sit and go through some forms on a computer” or anything like that. I wasn’t nervous or anything like that, and everyone was friendly towards me as I pointed out online.
So that was cool.
Have you had a “this is really happening” moment?
It happened at the enlistment office.
When at the enlistment office, did you see many other people volunteering like you have?
Quite a lot, at least at the same time together with me, there was around 10 of them.
And there were other people who were waiting in the line to get their exemption from service papers, because they are working at strategic factories or teaching at university, or studying in university.
There are quite a lot of reasons to be exempt from the service or at least to have a delay for a couple of years.
I just passed through and they had to wait more because of people like myself, so obviously the enlistment office is prioritizing people who want to fight.
You’ve mentioned in the past about looking to be a drone specialist. Are you still planning on that?
Yes, I went to informal training in Kyiv for about four weeks and was trained to fly and operate and command a fixed wing UAV that could fly about from 20 to like 100 kilometers deep into the enemy’s rear to provide reconnaissance information.
So that’s what I’m trained in and this is most likely going to be my military job for at least some time.
You’ve mentioned that you’re applying to a specific unit, so you can apply as a drone operator because you’re doing it in this manner rather than being mobilized, and then being put through a general course for wherever they send you?
Oh, yes. I think it’s always better to do what you like the most and where you feel you can make more impact, and obviously I do not really think that I can make a lot of impact being in the infantry because other people could do that.
But other people cannot operate the UAV on the level that I can, so I think it’s more efficient that way.
So it’s always better to pick the job that you really like and that you want, and in which you would feel safe enough and impactful enough. For some people it’s jobs like doing accounting in the military unit. That’s also needed, right?
How have the various units and soldiers Dzyga’s Paw provides aid to responded to your decision to join?
Absolutely, okay. No worries at all. Everyone just said “okay”.
So did you consult with them on which unit to join, or did they advise on one?
So I have definitely consulted with many units that we support through the charity, because there are a good amount of things that I do not completely understand in the military, and people who are in the military for like 10 years can give me the answers.
Although not every unit that we support was a good fit for me, I am lucky that I have the chance to talk to many of them. And in the end, I have settled with one of the units that we have started supporting quite recently.
How has Dzyga’s Paw handled your decision to step down and enlist?
It was a predictable decision, we talked about it earlier in strategic discussion sessions.
We prepared everything in a way that now Ira, my wife, can take over leadership. And basically everything is ready and she already did that. In terms of processes, it’s not like a personal initiative now already.
It’s more of a system that can consistently work with the military units, that could work with the audience for fundraising and so on.
It’s a system and taking me out of it isn’t going to change that.
How has the new system worked so far?
Absolutely great. In June 2024, we fundraised over $120,000, which is a good result for us as an organization.
And yeah, I mean nothing really changed much, but obviously she has different approaches to management, to risks, to finance, and we’re going to see – it’s impossible to judge so far. We need to give her at least a year or something.
So looking back at February and March 2022, when you started out, did you and the team expect to make it this far, raising $2.4 million (at the time of the interview), working with so many others.
I never expected anything like that, and really that is the trajectory that my life took. That was completely unexpected.
I never wanted or thought about serving in the military. Actually, I was quite the opposite of any governmental, hierarchical structures like the army.
It was just a complete mess because before 2022 we had all of our plans, fancy jobs and so on. But now, well, life demands that we take more responsibility and fight for our freedom.
And that’s how it is for me and how it is for many Ukrainians.
How has all the fundraising and working with all these partners to deliver aid made you feel?
Both personally and as an organization, I don’t feel that we are alone. Actually, it’s quite the opposite, although we are just operational fighting cogs here on the ground, I feel there is some kind of level of partnership happening right now.
On a very personal note, I have received a lot of kind words from people all over the world wishing me good luck and praying for my safe return home and for Ukrainian victory.
It’s impossible for these words to not motivate me, they lift my morale.
At the same time, I see that we have been able to not only gather kind words, thoughts and prayers, but at the same time, a lot of material support that we have been able to turn into life-saving equipment for the guys and girls fighting on the frontline.
And I think this was instrumental in saving hundreds of Ukrainian lives at least. It’s impossible to measure, but anyway, this made a great impact. And I’m very proud of what I was able to create together with other people, with the donors, with the team.
That’s kind of cool and a very unique experience, to be honest.
To return to something we talked about before, how have the various equipment needs of the units Dzyga’s Paw supports changed from the last time we talked?
Back in the day, Ukrainian fighters used to request a lot of FPV drones from us.
Now, from what we see, a lot of that is covered by the Ukrainian government, and the supply chain works pretty well to deliver big quantities of FPV drones. At the same time, the Russians have already leveled up their FPV game, so we need more advanced electronic warfare jammers for a huge range of frequencies, and it kind of becomes harder and harder in that regard.
So electronic warfare jammers, and just everything else really stays the same?
The reconnaissance drones are still, I think, cheap Chinese DJI Mavic drones. There still are a great deal of them in this war, and they make a lot of impact.
I’ll say, when fighting a war, there is never enough ammo and ways to deliver ammo to your enemies. So that really helps, but it’s not as critical as it was, let’s say, a year ago, with FPV drones.
So it’s very cyclic, first you have a shortage, and then everything catches up?
Yeah.
And of course, Dzyga’s Paw obviously has done a lot to help things out before the systems actually catch up.
Yeah, that’s exactly the role of non-governmental organizations, we are much quicker to fill the demand, and we are much more flexible, especially with newly developing technologies, that just do not make a lot of sense to invest into as a government, really.
It’s better to invest into bigger production on a bigger scale of already established equipment that is not going to change anyhow.
So that’s why governments invest in tanks or infantry fighting vehicles or anything like that, because it’s like you design and build it once, and it lasts you a good 50 years or something.
That’s what we see from the U.S. military, from the Russian military, and the equipment that is being used here in Ukraine.
But with the FPV drones, it really changes about every couple of months. So something that you invest in as a government would stop making sense in about two months.
What are your priorities to finish up at Dzyga’s Paw?
I’m done here, so I don’t have any specific role right now, and I’m just helping with the projects that we run. Nothing really specific.
I believe you mentioned that you are writing a book. What’s that about?
That’s generally about this quite unique experience of coming up with the idea of this charity, and a lot of personal events that I have gone through within these two and a half years – a lot of the big events of the war and how I lived through them or how I was involved in them, such as the Kharkiv Offensive or the big Russian attempt to cross the Siverskyi Donets river in May 2022 together with my friend Max.
And all of the personal things that happened in my life. Really, I just tried to describe them and that had a bit of a therapeutic effect on me, and then I’m just talking about the views that Ukrainians had on Russians and my decision to take up arms and go fight Russian invaders.
It’s more of a memoir in some way that helps other people, foreigners, to understand the context of the Russo-Ukrainian War and why Ukrainians fight for their freedom.
I mean, it seems like you’ve done a lot of things that nobody at your age should have to do at all.
Definitely. I mean, the whole story is quite unique – the whole story of Ukraine is very unique.
I think that the way we respond to challenges defines who we are. It’s quite easy to live a relaxed and privileged life, but what happens if you have to take the responsibility and act and fight? I think that really tells a lot about people.
So I think, yes, we just happened to be young, fun, smart, intelligent in this quite fucked up time and have been brave enough to take up the responsibility to take the risk, take the responsibility to do what is right.